62 thoughts to “Open Thread Non-Petroleum, July 23, 2022”

    1. Paywall,
      but if you find the ford mustang too big for you, perhaps the
      Wuling would be a good fit-
      China: Wuling Hong Guang MINI EV Sets Massive Sales Record
      https://insideevs.com/news/560897/china-wuling-hongguang-sales-2021/
      [GM is a part owner]

      Might or might not keep oil in the ground, but they can keep you and market cargo on the road when oil becomes a scarce item.

      Electric vehicles are primarily a non-USA phenomena, with US making up less than 10% of global sales. Its mostly a China and secondarily a European story.

    2. 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV,LT Hatchback 4D, 15,112 miles
      Purchase in Progress,$22,590- Carvana

      Courtney M. from MA
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      Car is awesome. Fun to drive, great range, great technology.

      Bryan D. from Ca
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      The Chevy Bolt is a masterpiece of design and execution. It is very well constructed and offers a very comfortable and fun ride. With a battery rated for 238 miles, but real world use going far above that (250-300 miles per charge is usual), range anxiety is a thing of the past.

      James S. from CA
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      It is the most fun car I have ever owned. It makes me feel unique and that I am part of something bigger.

      Frank R. from CA
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      The best electric vehicle available that is not a Tesla at less than one-half the price.

      M S. from CA
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      If you have a long range gas vehicle, then an electric car with the range of the Bolt is an excellent choice as a second vehicle

      Lori B. from FL
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      I love not knowing what current gas prices are! Gas stations are now quick stops for coffee and slurpees. Our electric bill only went up $20 per month after purchasing an electric car and we have virtually no maintenance (no oil changes, transmission fluid, etc…).

      Jason B. from Ca
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      Great range, lots of tech features

      Diane P. from CA
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

      nearly seamless conversion from gasoline/diesel to electric. Excellent price point, fun to drive, and skip all the headaches that come with Teslas. This can, and should, be the car that brings EVs to everyone.

      Janice J. from CA

      I purchased the Bolt because it provided a longer range per charge. I highly recommend installing a 240 volt charger and take advantage of off peak electricity rates. I love the safety features and the parking assist cameras. My husband loves driving the Bolt too. I love not going to the gas station, or getting the oil changed since there is none. One downside is I have to clean the windshield, but gas station cleaning solutions were always yucky anyway.

      https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/lt/1928322&store=?utm_source=google&utm_medium=vla&utm_campaign=14237742891&utm_content=124506026334&utm_target=pla-1656581773560&utm_creative=538468019400&utm_device=c&utm_adposition=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImc7jy96S-QIVSSCtBh2hEg-tEAQYASABEgIsO_D_BwE

      Just think SURVIVALIST, in ten more years a guy like yourself who takes pride in buying $5,000 used vehicles can own a GM EV Bolt too. On the other hand, it will be a cold summer day in North Carolina before a used EV Hummer sells for 5K.

      Location, location, location, High today of 76 and low tonight of 65. No AC needed here and less than $100 to heat the home with NG for an entire winter. Walking distance to three supermarkets and 20 restaurants. Got to go, heading out for the surf, sand and two pieces. Chop, chop, chop says the woodsman preparing for the winter. BTW, isn’t the Wall Street Journal owned by the same guy who owns FoxNewsless&BS ? Looks like Trump and the Proud Boys are going down for a long visit at the Big House. Tuff guys, the bigger they are. The harder they fall.

      https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/dce0083169b639a7b248fe29153cd5ac9530713836224028be9537946084462c

      Hi OFM, let me know when your ready to crank up the old Buick and head for the OC. Bring plenty of pairs of board shorts. Or better yet, we’ll get you some new ones here. Until then, just keep taking care of Dad. There will be a place waiting for you in heaven because of your care and empathy.

      1. Hi, HB,
        It’s great to see you still posting here. Thanks a bunch for the invitation, but I’m too tied up to travel for quite some time to come.

        I finally sold that ever faithful old Buick to somebody in desperate need of a car to get to work six months back, and it’s still running a hundred miles a day.

        Daddy will be leaving this vale of tears to what he sincerely believes is a better place sometime within the next day or two.

        I’ve done the best I could for him, which wasn’t what it should have been, at times, but in the end, it’s best for him and everybody.

        He’s not hurting, and he has family with him at the end of a very good and long life, all things considered.

        This will likely be my last post for a week or so, maybe longer, except for one I’m tagging on at the end of this thread right now.

    3. This reminds me of the complaints about mobile phones being “yuppie toys”.

      A few decades later there are billions of them around.

  4. American Empire is marching into the sunset — can we handle it?
    “As the world’s attention focuses on the war in Ukraine, Daniel Bessner, author of Democracy in Exile: Hans Speier and the Rise of the Defense Intellectual, redirects the spotlight towards what he believes will be the major focus of U.S. foreign policy for decades to come: China.”
    https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/07/25/american-empire-is-marching-into-the-sunset-can-we-handle-it/

    1. Haha nice try Putin, but you’re still losing. Your troll army won’t save Kherson.

      Russia is the only European colonial power that didn’t de-colonialize after WWII. It’s happening now.

  5. China is now projected to hit peak population in 2023, earlier than expected.
    And by 2025 India will be the biggest country in the world- and it is projected to increase from 1.4 to 1.6 B at its peak around 2050.

    And no other country will ever surpass that level….

    Uncharted territory on the way down.

    “Meanwhile, the world population is forecasted to peak at around 9.7 billion people in 2064, and fall to 8.8 billion by the century’s end, with 23 countries seeing populations shrink by more than 50 per cent, including Japan, Thailand, Italy and Spain.”-
    This probably far underestimates the downside trend.

    1. Kinda the rear view mirror:

      “There was madness in any direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay, then up the Golden Gate or down 101 to Los Altos or La Honda. . . . You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning. . . .

      And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .

      So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.”

      -Thompson

    2. This is a lot of what Zeihan talks about, population decline and deglobalisation. I’ve thought for years that population will fall faster than predicted and force degrowth.

      Population exploded because the death rate fell faster than the birth rate. The birth rate now is falling with the help of birth control, education and some government policies. But those are only the methods, the impetus is more macro than that. Kids are a power source and pension plan on a subsistence farm but a luxury and economic sink to fossil-fueled urban/suburbanites with a 401K.

      Back in the oughts I thought I could “collapse early and avoid the rush” as the Archdruid (I think) suggested. Turns out there is a huge opportunity cost that even me, intentional low-earner that I am, couldn’t stick with. Of course that was my own voluntary experiment and my wife was not in the childbearing cohort—although the Amish we bought the place from was certainly gearing up for his own kiddie-labor pool.

      I wonder what happens when energy isn’t available to squander at essentially too-cheap-to-meter cost as it has been the last century, energy that enabled—perhaps “forced”— these once in our species-history demographic upheavals? Can we get by with dramatically less on efficiency improvements alone?
      Or do we return to kiddie-labor?

      1. “Or do we return to kiddie-labor?”

        Its not just kids.
        Expendable and indentured servants/workers is still a very big thing in this world.
        And it is poised for a very big recurrent surge if we do not keep up a fight against it.

  6. Is nuclear power a viable partial option for fossil energy shortfall?
    Answer- yes…
    -if you have lots of money (savings or great credit),
    -if you have lots of time to get the job done
    -if you can accept high risk and get insurance to cover it
    -if you trust the stability and operations precision of your culture to handle the radiation responsibly/indefinitely

    Consider-
    -New nuclear power plants cost 2.3 to 7.4 times those of onshore wind or utility solar PV per kWh, take 5 to
    17 years longer between planning and operation.

    -The average age of U.S. commercial nuclear power reactors that were operational as of December 31, 2021 was about 40 years, and nuclear energy provides about 20% of US electricity.

  7. Ya don’t need a PhD in pattern recognition to see where this is all heading.

    Climate Disasters in Latin America Threaten Global Food Security
    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/climate-disasters-in-latin-america-threaten-global-food-security-1.1795588.amp.html

    Mega-drought, glacier melt, and deforestation plague Latin America and the Caribbean
    https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/07/1123032

    Drought in Italy: Crop yields down by up to 45%
    https://www.inform.kz/en/drought-in-italy-crop-yields-down-by-up-to-45_a3958886/amp

    France struggles with drought over punishing summer of heat
    https://phys.org/news/2022-07-france-struggles-drought-summer.amp

    Harvesting Wheat in Drought-Parched Kansas
    “A global grain shortage has put extra pressure on American farmers. Can they navigate extreme weather and skyrocketing inflation when the world needs them most?”
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/harvesting-wheat-in-drought-parched-kansas/amp

    Romania Warns Corn Exports May Slump as Drought Shrinks Harvest
    “Romania exported 4.3 million tons of corn last season and was the second-biggest shipper of sunflower seed. It’s also a major wheat and barley supplier.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-19/romania-warns-corn-exports-may-slump-as-drought-shrinks-harvest

    French Heat and Drought Shrinks Wheat Harvest in Key EU Exporter
    “Heat, drought and storms have shrunk the wheat harvest in France, the European Union’s top exporter, further straining global supplies.”
    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/french-heat-and-drought-shrinks-wheat-harvest-in-key-eu-exporter-1.1790744.amp.html

    A poor wheat harvest as Oklahoma faces a hotter, drier future
    “Without steps to reduce global emissions, the number of 100-degree days the state sees each year is on track to triple by the middle of the century.”
    https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/a-poor-wheat-harvest-as-oklahoma-faces-a-hotter-drier-future/

    Shrinking cattle herd could equal high calf, beef prices
    https://agrilifetoday.tamu.edu/2022/07/26/shrinking-cattle-herd-could-equal-high-calf-beef-prices/

    “Yield volatility is gonna go through the roof”
    Climate Change and Global Food Security: Prof David Battisti
    https://youtu.be/YToMoNPwTFc?t=45m36s

  8. ‘The Russians have nothing equivalent’: How HIMARS help Ukraine
    “The United States’s armed forces are to bring an even more advanced HIMARS-launched rocket, the Precision Strike Missile (PrSM), with a 500km (310-mile) range, into the field next year. Should that be supplied to regional allies, they would be able to hit in the vicinity of Moscow.”
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/26/the-russians-have-nothing-equivalent-how-himars-help-ukraine

    Putin sure stepped on his dick this time. The Javelins and MANPADS did a great job in the opening salvos of the invasion when Russian combat arms were closing with and attempting to destroy Ukrainian fighting units with armor and infantry. Now that Russia has pulled back a few dozen tactical bounds in preference for artillery battles, it’s interesting to see the western kit holding up; and selling.

  9. As if European challenge with energy supply/cost isn’t enough,
    the pace of immigration is picking-
    “The cumulative human impacts of the climate emergency also shape the overall migration picture. But right now, it’s the threat to food supplies posed by Vladimir Putin’s Black Sea blockade, and resulting shortages, price inflation and instability, that is the big new factor. For Putin, migration, like energy and food, is a weapon of war to aim at Europe’s heart.”
    “EU commissioner for home affairs, said Europe faced a “huge challenge”. Linked food and energy crises “could lead to countries being unstable, terrorist groups being stronger, organised criminal groups being stronger”, she said. “That means people … don’t feel safe to stay in their country.”
    “Most non-Ukrainian refugees and economic migrants classed as irregular come from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey, Belarus, Bangladesh, Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa.”

    1. It’s great here in Germany that there are immigrants coming, because there is a labor shortage. My wife taught German at the refuges center about 150 m from out house, and now she meets her former students nearly every day, as bus drivers, in the veggie market etc.

      True story: When the big flood of refugees came a civic minded local barber shop offered all the refugees a free haircut at our local asylum, figuring they’d all been on the road for weeks or months and needed it. On the day this Iraqi guy volunteered to help. By the end of the day the barber guys were so impressed they went to the Auslandsamt to get the guy a work permit.

      Fast forward a few years, and I only get my haircut at Arab barber shops. They just have better service.

      Meanwhile there’s a lot of tow-headed kids playing in the yard at the asylum. Putin hates everyone who isn’t Russian, but sadly for him, Russians don’t have enough babies to replace the existing population, and Stalinism isn’t sexy enough to make people identify as Russian. But he’d rather have empty land than land occupied by hated foreigners. His depopulate drive has spread to Europe. These days you hear those sweet Slavic intonations everywhere on the street in Germany .

    1. Thank goodness, maybe farmers will finally stop dumping so much waste fertilizer into the environment.

  11. The Feds launched https://www.heat.gov with tools & information for communities facing extreme heat.

    I have an old canvass tent behind the shack and in the shade. I’ll soak it down with the hose and sit inside it if things ever get deadly hot. Luckily I’m never short on water. Evaporative cooling will do the rest.

      1. You’re welcome. Everyone should share it.

        Cue the Heat Death Forecasts.
        Maybe we can color code it,
        like those Terror Alerts we tried for a bit.

        Heat wave kills more than 2,000 people in Spain and Portugal
        https://www.axios.com/2022/07/18/heat-wave-europe-death-toll

        Thousands Of Cattle Reportedly Dumped Into Kansas Landfill After Dying From Extreme Heat
        https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/07/26/thousands-of-cattle-reportedly-dumped-into-kansas-landfill-after-dying-from-extreme-heat/amp/

        Mortality caused by heatwaves in China has increased since 1979
        https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/959750

        In 2023 agriculture production will begin to contract rapidly, and by 2030 we’ll be at least a billion souls lighter.

        1. When there is a big heat wave and elderly get stuck in their masonry apartments without AC- it is a recipe for thousands of death as we have seen recently-
          “Europe’s five hottest summers in the past 500 years have all occurred in the last 15 years, not including this summer. All have been deadly. The 2003 heat wave was the worst, having led to the deaths of over 70,000 people; in 2010, 56,000 died in Russia alone.”
          And for workers who can’t get shade time, and water.

          Imagine Dallas or Phoenix or Chicago or LVegas if there is a long heat wave and the electricity goes down.

          “In 2023 agriculture production will begin to contract rapidly, and by 2030 we’ll be at least a billion souls lighter.”…
          I may be in denial, but I very much doubt it happens that fast (without other dominant factors like war or bad pandemic).

          1. I realize it is a bold statement. I should add, I anticipate increased warring and decreased public health/increased malnutrition & disease as a result of rapidly contacting agricultural output, secondary to climate change (& peak oil). Perhaps when there are some data points someone will do the regression analysis.

            Deadly disease: how the Great Famine led to outbreaks of illness
            “Between 1845 and 1852 starvation and famine-related diseases were responsible for more than 1 million excess deaths in Ireland, the vast majority attributable to contagious or communicable diseases that raged epidemically and with great malignity, particularly fever, dysentery, diarrhoea, tuberculosis, smallpox, and measles among children.”
            https://www.rte.ie/history/the-great-irish-famine/2020/0721/1154625-deadly-disease-how-the-great-famine-led-to-outbreaks-of-illness/

            While public health has come a long way since The Great Famine, it is worth noting that malnutrition causes immunosuppression.

            Tuberculosis remains one of the deadliest infectious diseases worldwide, warns new report
            https://www.europeantimes.news/2022/03/tuberculosis-remains-one-of-the-deadliest-infectious-diseases-worldwide-warns-new-report/

            1. How about HIV/AIDS once we lose the ability to produce the cocktail of drugs now used to suppress ( but not cure) the disease?

            2. “And when it came about that all the tombs which had existed previously were filled with the dead, then they dug up all the places about the city one after the other, laid the dead there, each one as he could, and departed; but later on those who were making these trenches, no longer able to keep up with the number of the dying, mounted the towers of the fortifications in Sycae [Galata], and tearing off the roofs threw the bodies there in complete disorder; and they piled them up just as each one happened to fall, and filled practically all the towers with corpses, and then covered them again with their roofs. As a result of this an evil stench pervaded the city and distressed the inhabitants still more, and especially whenever the wind blew fresh from that quarter.”

              Procopius.

    2. My brother in north London was hosing down his west and south brick walls during the heat blast last week, for the same reason.

  13. Watch: Beyond ‘hopeium’ and ‘doomism’: Accelerating the transition in an increasingly chaotic world
    “Breaching the 1.5°C target does not mean that the world cannot be ‘saved’ or that it will ‘end’. It will mean vastly more suffering and injustice.”
    “As planetary boundaries are further exceeded, a far less stable world could result as societies struggle under worsening environmental shocks and their cascading consequences. These conditions could present significant threats to the transition itself, potentially fragmenting focus on mitigation or presenting overwhelming demands on adaptation. They could also present large opportunities, creating a greater impetus for rapid change.”
    https://www.chathamhouse.org/events/all/research-event/beyond-hopeium-and-doomism-accelerating-transition-increasingly-chaotic

    1. Yeah, the world is doomed without Russian oil xD

      You are so transparent.

  16. Heat and drought force ranchers to sell off cattle, threatening long-term supply

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy-environment/heat-drought-force-ranchers-sell-off-cattle?_amp=true

    “in my opinion we are getting to the “knee point”, or curve inflection in the exponential rise in the rate of collapse of civilization. Those familiar with exponential curves will know what that means. For others, simply put, the poop has hit the fan and is now being distributed randomly throughout the room.” ~ George Mobus

    1. I like and hold stock in both companies. I also own stock in other EV makers as well. The only competition to me is getting ICE vehicles off of the road. For you it is pure character assassination with your regular Musk attacks. BYD is doing well, but of the two companies, Tesla is producing all electric vehicles, while BYD produces that and hybrids. So it really isn’t an apples to apples comparison. That, again, is fine by me since I own both kinds. But it really should be pointed out. Which because you are so anti-Musk you would never do.

      1. … well, that IS in the article that I posted, so I kinda…. pointed it out. I suppose I could have emphasized the apples to apples thing for the sensitive Musk fans amongst us.
        I’m not really anti-musk, it’s nothing personal; I’m just good at spotting mountebanks; I can tell be the hitch in his step.

        I’d be curious to know how much gasoline the hybrid buyers actually consume, given that perhaps much of the miles driven are likely urban commuting/sitting in traffic from home to work.

        1. If you aren’t anti-Musk, I would hate to see what you say about people who you are “anti-” about. Just in the last two posts you have referred to him as a “carnival barker” and a “montebank”. Are those your terms of endearment? But more to the point, it isn’t clear BYD did manufacture more BEV’s than Tesla did. If the metric is “who produced the most vehicles with some batteries”, then BYD did. Just to muddy the waters a little more, BYD sells batteries to Tesla. All good. More EVs of any kind means less pure ICE vehicles. With all the very bad climate news, that is a rare bright spot.

          As to your question about how much gasoline hybrid buyers use, my own experience is that for a 2018 Volt my partner and I have had for about two years, we are using around $20 in gasoline per year around town and it is my partner’s daily driver. Most of that is because the Volt warms the car up in the winter with gasoline and will burn gasoline if it is deemed to be getting old. Rarely do we exceed its normal electric range.
          We did just take it on a roundtrip of about 2200 miles from Colorado into Oregon and got around 36 mpg for the entire trip. With only a 60 mile electric range, the trip was 99 percent on gasoline. We only charged it at home and our destination. I only had two days allocated to driving, so I took it instead of my Tesla. I did run into a couple of Teslas in some fairly remote places. One Model Y was even towing a small trailer just outside of Snowden, Utah. At this point, I am not sure I am that brave.

          As chargers get more prevalent and EV ranges improve, I will sell the Volt and move onto a pure EV. Hopefully I can do that within a year or two.

        2. I had the pleasure of using a plugin hybrid for 2 years.
          Almost 80% of my miles were electric from roof solar, but charged at night in order to respond to grid supply/demand incentives.
          And a little over 20% was gasoline- primarily when going on long trips.

          Average mileage equivalent was 82 mpg, and this vehicle was big enough to put a sheet of plywood in.
          I’d have certainly kept it if there was an all-wheel drive version with a little better clearance.

  18. As the planet bakes we have……..

    RECORD-BREAKING COAL CONSUMPTION

    The world’s coal-fired generators produced a record 10,244 terawatt-hours (TWh) in 2021 surpassing the previous record of 10,098 TWh set in 2018 (“Statistical review of world energy”, BP, July 2022).

    1. When do you think we will reach the peak Global Human Combustion day?
      [combined carbon emission from the burning of dung, wood, coal, oil, gas…anything that can burn]

      If there was no coal to burn, next will be the residual forests.

    2. That’s power produced, not coal consumed. Coal consumption peaked a decade ago.

      I’m not a coal fan either, but why do you insist on using statistics to lie about it?

      1. GLOBAL COAL DEMAND TO RETURN TO ITS ALL-TIME HIGH IN 2022 – IEA

        Based on current economic and market trends, global coal consumption is forecast to rise by 0.7% in 2022 to 8 billion tonnes, assuming the Chinese economy recovers as expected in the second half of the year. The IEA said this global total would match the annual record set in 2013, and coal demand is likely to increase further next year to a new all-time high.

        https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-market-update-july-2022

    1. The electrolytic cells used to produce chlorine dioxide also produce hydrogen as a waste byproduct, I do not know what current practice is, but the company I worked for installed a unit in Indonesia and just vented it to atmosphere ( with considerable fuss over avoiding accidental ignition).
      Hydrogen does, however , represent a step in the only feasible path I can see to continuing a long term industrial/ technological future for mankind because it does have the chemical reduction power and combustion temperatures needed to smelt iron and other metal oxides, and to produce nitrogen fertilizers but it is unrealistic to expect to run a massive electrolytic hydrogen industry on intermittent wind and solar power. We need success on either fusion reactors or a viable means of extracting uranium from seawater to power that industry.
      Will it happen? Chances are slim, but not zero.

      1. Vattenfall and SSAB seems to disagree. (large, partially government owned companies in Sweden)
        There is also another company in Sweden putting quite some effort in it.
        And check out the latest electrolyzer development, quite interesting to say the least.

        https://www.hybritdevelopment.se/en/
        https://www.h2greensteel.com/

        Have posted about it before, but aparently needs repeating. (Have been involved in hydrogen storage methods in my previous job, so did some homework on it)

        2. I was aware of the pilot demonstrations, very nice to see pilot plant proof of concept. My concern is the scale-up of electrolyzer capacity to hundreds of millions of tons per year of hydrogen and the power supply required to enable reliable, efficient operation. My limited experience with electrolyzer operation is that frequent shutdown /startup situations are not conducive to efficiency or long service life of the equipment.
          Fugitive hydrogen losses will also likely increase with interruptions in operation, it is a slippery little molecule.
          The real challenge for the future is, as always, replacing fossil fuels with something else on a massive scale, and for most industrial situations, with stability and reliability.

  21. “The total amount of wheat harvested in Hungary was about 25% less than the average yield in the past five years”
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/hungary-harvests-39-mln-tonnes-wheat-maize-sunflower-crop-at-serious-risk-2022-07-29/

    I feel I have been doing a bit better than the cornucopians in terms of plotting the future trends, what with the famine starting and all. How’s the robotaxi’s doing? How’s the Technological Singularity, aka The Rapture for Nerds™, working out?

    The next several years are gonna see a lot of porcelain broken due to famine and famine related violence and disease.

  22. Elon Musk is drifting toward the hard-core authoritarian right
    “Earlier in June, Tesla CEO Elon Musk revealed that he voted for a QAnon-affiliated Republican for a U.S. House seat in Texas and that he’s leaning toward supporting Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis for president in 2024. While the world’s richest man has claimed to have centrist inclinations and has held political views that are all over the map, he appears to be drifting toward hard-right Trumpian territory.”
    https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/ncna1296529

    And by hardcore right they seem to mean pro Qanon and Antivax.

    1. From MSNBC. That is hardly a surprise opinion since he had the audacity of saying some things positive about some Republicans. And that wasn’t even anything positive about Trump. Who he not a fan of. But Elon has always been more of a moderate independent. To accuse him of being Qanon is just more ad homs that you obviously agree with. You really need to try and get Musk out of your mind. But, at any rate, I anxiously await your next “I am not anti-Musk” diatribe.

    1. Hint:
      There is nothing in the center of the road but white lines and dead armadillos.

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